Curse

DOCB22 · Aug 04, 2006, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Elementalists was my first toon and stell my fave. the trouble with the Elementalists is its USER!! the only thing that pissed me off was the unneeded aoe nerf. give me back my aoe

Numa Pompilius · Aug 04, 2006, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Get real people, Ele damage output isn't fine, it stinks, and the reason it stinks is that it's not armor ignoring. Take Meteor Shower, the only serious damage fire ele spell: 5 second cast, 25 energy cost, 60 second recharge, and it causes exhaustion - and the power of it isn't bigger than that a level 15 Ettin survives. If you use it on a human lvl 20 warrior you better have Blinding Flash loaded, because even provided he's dumb enough to STAY in the Meteor Shower it doesn't even make him lose half health.
No, even the eles biggest spell is only good for one reason: it has three knockdowns, giving the rest of the team time to kill the enemy.

As of now, eles are a good support class with many useful support skills, but have the lowest damage output of any class in the game, including monks.

Robster Lobster · Aug 04, 2006, 02:03 AM // 02:03

I think a reasonable buff to ele's would be to allow some mechanic on their AoE spells (Ctrl + Click perhaps?) that allows you to select a location to cast, rather than being forced to cast only on top of one targets head. This would allow you to control chokepoints and important area's much better.

I mean, it makes sense. Why shouldn't a powerful mage be able to summon a powerful spell in any location?

floppinghog · Aug 04, 2006, 02:52 AM // 02:52

aoe attacks suck honestly, i would much rather see an "in the area" (or bigger would be nice and useful) spell that hits randomly and HARD. it would be balanced if its based on just luck of the hit and position of the foes.

they are supposed to have a sort of control over an area? wasnt ONE of their suggested uses when gw was released? yeah tough break - they can move someone out of a "nearby" radius, thats 3-4 steps to the SIDE. cause the spells have SET spots to work on...

I say, meteor shower should not be a target and "nearby" radius and all of it each hit but... be a single space hit (size of a player -and effect the adject of it for half dmg) randomly - in the area or larger would be totally useful - cool - and pose eles as even alittle more useful.

come on now... if you cant make them spike insanely (like they were the biggest dmg dealers - supposed to be). cause that would be overpowered,

-add the element (NO PUN INTENDED) of RANDOMness to aoe attacks
1 - make em hit double as hard
2 - make MORE aoe spells....
3 - more aoe spells ... more twists to uses
4 - make em hit half of the jacked up dmg for adject lands
5 - make the hits random, and in wide area
6 - and much longer durations.

Lordhelmos · Aug 04, 2006, 03:04 AM // 03:04

In the preview event, eles got jacked really freaking hard. Yes dervish will get the nerf bat, but in the same regards it made me realize how ineffecient the elementalists class really is. Yes there are good players that have found ways to keep this class alive in high level play as a support class (Mages as primary supporters? When the manual states them as damage dealers? Freaking pathetic.), but seriously... I mean to think about what nightfall is going to do to eles is scary. Factions really jacked eles up pretty hard with repeat skills and the lack of good energy management that we were waiting for. My elementalist is DREADING nightfall. Players from all across the board are complaining and pointing out the numerous issues surrounding the class...

Bottom line is something needs to be done. Look at the number of ele complain threads floating around! I am sure Anet is well aware of this issue. These complaints and discussions are even involving people in high level play...

Screw the whales, save the eles!

Vermilion Okeanos · Aug 04, 2006, 04:48 AM // 04:48

The dervish had everything ele ever dreamed of.

Unlimited energy recovery.
Heal + recover energy + dmg + condition all at the same time.
An AoE auto-attack.
No PBAoE delay.
Increase movement speed stance.
Large AoE size.
Higher armor.
More life.
Form shift that allow you to play almost as any kind of role for the duration. (avatar of balthazar = warrior, etc)

Anyway...

If I were to fix ele, I would change their damage system. I would test the result of from 75% armor catious damage + 25% armor ignore damage of the oringinal damage to 50/50 of the original. Say if the oringinal damage is 100 armor catious damage, it would now be 75 A.C. + 25 A.I. instead. This way, ele would be balance in both offense against strong armor and weak armor target.

Aside that, the dev should be able to make each elemental attribute's damage uniqe. Such as fire being 75/25 and earth being 50/50 and so on.

Just an untested theory.

I really hope ele get something like spectral agony

hipoxus · Aug 04, 2006, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Ok, this is my take on this pretty much crappy class. I've played both a Mesmer fast cast Ele, and a regular ol Ele, and damn Mesmers make them look like crap. I swear my mesmer can dish out the exact same crap twice as fast and nearly just as deadly. Cast time for ele is just rediculous!!?!?1 wth man, but look at this you can't fkin fIX CASt Times! wHY? Mesmers would OWN THAT much more that is why...so how do you we fix it so Eles are still wortha crap?

My plan is to fix the Elementalists main attribute Energy Storage....obviously looking at Mesmers and my Eles mana pool the majority of the time you don't really need 100 energy...Elemental Attunement anyone? So what I'm saying is this attribute is just not up to par with mesmers/dervish/necros/paragons/monks you name it. So my plan is something like what a monks got...have them say do more damage as you gain rank in Energy Storage hey? This is what I'm thinking, two possiblites....either A.] For Every 4 Ranks of Energy Storage You Gain 1 Attribute Point for All Elements -- with this setup you can have up to 20 in an element, vastly increasing Energy Storages worth. or B.] For Every 3 Ranks of Energy Storage You Gain 3 Added Damage To All Elemental Spells --- so like 48 more damage maxed out, not as much as 20 in elemental attribute but would still help out. Or maybe some sort of Divine Favor effect certain skills type of thing you know, somethign around those lines.

Now both of these options would keep the 3 energy for each rank or maybe lowered to 2 if one of these is added to it. Either way this idea would make Elementalist mains useful for damage. Anyway thats just the way I see it, and if Dervishes can heal and gain energy I don't see this as that huge of a problem.

led-zep · Aug 04, 2006, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by TadaceAce

Viable? they are only used in pve cause people in pve are dumb and in pvp as blindbot. They are no good at doing what they are sposed to do.

this quote alone gives pvpers such a bad name, its idiots like him who put people off pvp due to the self important tossers involved.

Phades · Aug 04, 2006, 10:10 AM // 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

With all respect to Ensign, if the new metagame revolves around a massive gank of PBAoE, say hello to the elemenatalist as a slow hexer, Aoe nuke with Aoe KD and wards (I foresee a nerf to the dervish holy damage enchants), not goodbye.

The wards are junk, because everyone in one is getting hit by dervish aoe damage. The hexes do not work, as the dervish class has very effective ways to remove hexes without outside support, while creating synergy within their class for energy management and healing. AOE kd with dragon stop and earthquake seems interesting at first, until you realize its a 3s cast and with a run speed boost the dervishes will be doing damage to people within that 3s timeframe when you start the clock from the edge of the aggro circle. Clearly you didnt play with or against the dervish durring the pvp event.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

So for those skills I'd like to see the radius of their effect increased.

Been asking for AOE size increases for almost a year now, in order to justify the energy cost of the skills. This would be ignoring cast times and recast times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

This will increase the damage eles seek by increasing the amount of time players are in Aoe and the number of players effected by such spells. Just increasing their damage per proc is like putting a bandade on a broken bone; nice sentiment but its not the fix you need.

I have no idea what you are talking about when you wrote this considerinig the dervish skills did more damage, for less energy, ingoring AL alot of the time, creating healing and energy for the user, larger aoe size, were usable more often, and did not have a massive aftercast penalty. They simply felt like un-nerfed elementalists.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Right now as heal party is the most efficent healing spell on the game. The ele is going to be there to support that. They are also the best flag runners because of this strategy. Ele's are going to go no where from GvG until something changes heal party.

Its only really efficient for party wide pressure commonly found in degen style builds. In virtually every other instance directed monk based heals are more effective. Heal party is not going to save anyone that gets hit hard with anything or focused upon. Besides, you could just make a dervish or a necro spambot for that skill if you really wanted to anyway. It just requires a little more of a specific setup, opposed to a generalist ele setup.

Numa Pompilius · Aug 04, 2006, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robster Lobster

I think a reasonable buff to ele's would be to allow some mechanic on their AoE spells (Ctrl + Click perhaps?) that allows you to select a location to cast, rather than being forced to cast only on top of one targets head. This would allow you to control chokepoints and important area's much better.

That is actually a very good idea. The actual damage and/or duration might need to be buffed too, to keep people from simply running through the AoE, but I like the idea of area denial.

EDIT: How about very serious AoE spells which can not be targeted against players, only areas? Possibly at very long range (longbow-range, or even more)? For instance, something like Meteor Shower, but with one knockdown/damage every three seconds for 30 seconds. I mean, if Eles are supposed to be heavy artillery, give them heavy artillery-like fire and let them do area denial...

blaise · Aug 04, 2006, 11:07 AM // 11:07

Recharge time need to be lowered then it will be ok.

Cynn Evennia · Aug 04, 2006, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by hipoxus

My plan is to fix the Elementalists main attribute Energy Storage....obviously looking at Mesmers and my Eles mana pool the majority of the time you don't really need 100 energy...Elemental Attunement anyone?

My dear hipoxus, you read my mind.

We are one of the best support professions ingame but we do not deal enough damage to be considered as a serious damage dealer in both PvE and PvP

True enough: the elementalist cannot be considered balanced when a FC (air) ele spikes better. What is the case of making a primary ele then? Damage should be the answer but the Energy storage just makes an ele a Heal party spammer or makes us deal slightly better than other professions vs exhaustion. Hipoxus, you are right, an ele should be the master of elements: no one should use air, earth, fire and water better than her, as no one uses corpses like a necro, heals like a monk or casts as fast as a mesmer.

Lets forget the extra energy granted by Energy storage (ES) and lets consider instead "Elemental wisdom" (EW) with an extra 3-5% damage per EW rank when using elemental spells

In that case we could consider to make all attunements EW dependent, and with the energy rebate (payback, return) depending on EW ranks. Say we start with 0% back of the cost of an ele spell at 0 EW rank and end up with 100% rebate when EW is maxed (btw having twin attunements gives 83% back).

Of course this would change the dynamics of the game: no more energy guy over 60, and therefore a reduction on cost, casting and recharge times of ele's spells should be considered.

Gedanken Experiment

Imagine this brand new elementalist with only 45 energy pool but 13 attribute points on Elemental wisdom and 16 on Fire magic. She comes and casts a buffed Meteor shower (say it costs 20 energy, casts in 2 secs, recharges in 25 secs) on a random location (yes, Robster, "why shouldn't a powerful mage be able to summon a powerful spell in any location?"). If we add 3-5% of damage per rank in EW and a wider AoE then this proto-ele can secure the zone completely: who would dare to enter into the shower when they got KD'd and receive 169-196 dmg per hit. Considering an energy rebate over 70% using Fire attunement this proto ele would be able to cast showers every 30 seconds: isnt that THE DAMAGE DEALER and THE PRESSURE BUILD the elementalists are supposed to be?

PS Even if this is just a dream i think it should be tried at least, say one weekend in both PvP and PvE.

dreamhunk · Aug 04, 2006, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by unienaule

Do you even watch HOW they're used? Do they use elementalist damage skills for damage? NO.

To explain what I'm saying better, here are a couple lists.

Things Elementalists are good at:
Fire damage/knockdown in PvE to large groups.
Wards.
Blindbot/slowdown in PvP.

Things Elementalists are not good at:
Doing anything with air/water/earth related to damage in PvE.
Doing anything related to damage at all in PvP outside of fast cast MESMER airspike.
Doing damage in general.

To sum up, are they good at support? Yes. But are the skills that do damage useful? Nope. If you'll watch PvP a bit more, you won't see elementalist builds set up as part of a balanced team to do damage, and that's the ONLY thing I'm saying is bad about elementalists.

Izzy knows this but yet he fails to change it! LOL

I bet when ever he sees elemental class he skips right over it.

Hella Good · Aug 04, 2006, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Let's have a bit of reality check here. There was no complains about Eles before the AoE nerf. In fact, Echo nuking was a staple part of PvE, and Ele spiking was a staple part of PvP. It all started AFTER the AoE nerf. Now:

Q: Did the AoE nerf include a nerf of the skills themselves? Did it change the damage component of the skills?
A: No.

Isn't it true that since the AoE nerf Eles have only been buffed??? Damagewise, rechargewise, whathaveyou. Well then, if be4 the AoE nerf Eles were perfectly fine (in fact, often overused) and the AoE nerf did not include any nerf of damage component of Ele skills, AND since the AoE nerf Eles have only recieved buffs, is there ANY validity to all the whining??? Absolutely NOT.

Should I remind you that Eles were over the top when the game 1st came out and ANet had to adjust them because people were complaining? I wonder how many remember the whole story anymore.... and how many are simply post-AoE nerf complaining that monsters will no longer sit in one spot and contemplate existence while getting hammered by a ton of AoEs sent by an underdressed chick...

Rancour · Aug 04, 2006, 04:33 PM // 16:33

I suggest reading the first post in "Why Nuking Sucks"... That sums up pretty well WHY elementalist stink at damage dealing, not only because they're skills aren't worth their cost, but also because warriors simple-are-STRONGER. Warriors deal more DPS and are larger threats than elementalists.

Again, read "Why Nuking Sucks". It's the best description of the situation of elementalists (and it's from before Factions, though nothing has changed).

Ensign · Aug 04, 2006, 07:37 PM // 19:37

To clarify why elementalist use will drop if the dervish is strong - the existance of elementalists in builds comes largely from three aspects, the first being the ability to crank out Heal Party (and other expensive monk spells that you can't fit reasonably on a roach monk). The second is their ability to hate out warriors, and to a lesser extent other physicals, between wards, blind, and ice. A third concern is the ability of an elementalist to snare opponents, which makes all of your physicals more effective (they can't kite your melee or dodge your arrows).

The less warriors there are in a metagame, though, the less relevant an elementalist is. Sure Heal Party is nice and all, but you're not going to get anywhere with a guy who's just a third monk. You need some offensive help (in the form of setting things up with snares, or spiking) to win, and strong, proactive mes effects on their warriors tend to be a lot stronger than straight healing. But if your defensive skills aren't working, because instead of warriors you're facing PBAoE dervishes, then the ele starts to look really bad. Sure they can still snare targets offensively, and pump out some parties...but is that really worth a character when you can distribute those snares onto other templates?

You've only been able to run more than one ele before because you *knew* the other team would have two or more warriors. When they don't, you can't justify the second elementalist, and depending on what they have even that first one becomes suspect. The ability of an ele to hold off a single physical in the base indefinitely is one of the big selling points of the class. But when people are ganking with dervishes, what's the point? You see it a bit now, with illusion mesmers on the side - the ele really is a hate character, he exists to fill holes, not cause problems.

If those holes shift to new ones, as one would hope from an evolving game, the ele goes away unless he's still the right solution. It's that simple.

Peace,
-CxE

brokenmonkey · Aug 04, 2006, 07:54 PM // 19:54

The Elementalist is a awsome character, and i agree with most of ur comments..

But I would like to add more to fixing the elementalist

Water skills
Im getting kinda tired of fire and air, and a little earth..
Why aren't the water skills even water? As far as i know there all ice (and YES i know ice is a form of water)
Why don't they Bring in actual water skills? Im just asking for a skill like this.
Tsunami(I had to check spelling XD)Energy cost 25-30(yes i said 30)Recharge time 45 seconds
All foes from Your Position to your target, that is in the area, are knocked down and take 88 water dmg( 104 with 16 water magic)This Spell causes exuastion.

Now there are a few things that are a problem, 1st of all there would need to be a new kind of phyX implamented into Guildwars to show water flow from u to a target( it would put use to my PhyX card XD), another way to this is just good design of teh spell. Im tired of the little circle over my head, i want to c water. They could do a kind of water look like the fountains and waterfalls that are allready ingame. 2nd Problem is , What would be the width of the attack? I would guess a nearby width.

There could be many other skills that involve water; Rain, Waterspout, Slipin slide(XD, like while in the range of this attack u have 75% chance to miss with attacks and when u do miss u get KD) and so on and so on

Elementalist Armour

Im tired of my stupid coat with a tail. I would likre different looks to my armour. Factions brought a "Vest look" but i want somthing cooler, maby a robe with it going over my head (example

iablo 2 The Wanderer (the devil in human form)) there could also be tatoo look for eles.

ALso i would enjoy new Mods for ele based staffs .. 10% chance to evade exaustion. I would say 20, but that seems too much, since the adrenaline is 10% also..

AND LAST but not least

I pray to u i pray , give the ele a new dance. Im tired of the Elayna(spelling) dance from Sinefeld(spelling) XD. maby ice cube dance =) ahaha. or a DDR hahaha.

Well thats what i think.. and oh yea since the dervish get to change form.. i want to be a flame Dijjn from sorrows Ha ha=D.

Burakus Lightwing · Aug 04, 2006, 08:15 PM // 20:15

I mentioned the extra pips for energy storage a few months back, so I'll say it again. Maybe something like +5 at 10, +6 at 13, +7 at 16, something along those lines. I think that would go a long way into helping this class.

I'd love to dust of my first character again and use him some. Having energy storage relate to additional pips of regen would be great.

To those that mentioned removing exhaustion would lead to more spiking/spamming, then those "spike-able" or spammable "killer" skills would need their recharge times reworked to avoid this.

I like the ele, was my first character. I had fun playing one and in PvE he's still a great character to play. However, imho the Ele has no place in PvP other than being a purely defensive player.

Cynn Evennia · Aug 04, 2006, 08:36 PM // 20:36

It would be nice to eliminate the 3 extra energy for each rank in ES and to have instead 1 extra pip of energy for each 4 ranks on ES but im afraid its not feasible nor desirable: it would make the Elementalist the best primary profession, and we would be seeing tons of E/N necros, E/Me mesmers or E/whatever but NOT A SINGLE ELEMENTALIST.

Id rather go, as i have already said, for "Elemental wisdom" as a primary: 3-5% extra damage or armor penetration using elemental spells for each rank.

Seef II · Aug 04, 2006, 08:38 PM // 20:38

More regen is not a true fix. Then you have elementalists canned into more heal party bots and abusing other class high-cost skills because of the increased energy from storage.